# Barbarism - Good or Bad? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** slave-trade\ **Created:** [6 November 2026 09:42 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508 "2026-11-06T09:42:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [6 November 2026 09:42 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/1 "2026-11-06T09:42:55Z")
This book is popular among the pro-Palestine crowd in France and elsewhere: [![getimage_73b3a4d0-21b1-422d-af63-fe1530464ac1](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/uploads/default/original/3X/7/c/7c7b9ae23c0fb68949deda59e0bd179d04959dd7.webp)](https://www.versobooks.com/products/3153-in-defence-of-barbarism) > Challenging the conventional wisdom that posits integration as an unalloyed good, she shows how assimilation can equate to the loss of traditions, religion, language, and culture. And, whether discussing 9/11, the Algerian colonial era, the media treatment of celebrities of Arab origin, or the second-class status of French citizens from an immigrant background, she holds an uncompromising mirror up to the West and its moral shortcomings, as if to say: a barbarian I may be, but who is the real monster? Let’s examine the historical facts: Case 1: The **Barbary slave trade** involved the capture of an estimated 1.25 million Europeans and selling them at slave markets in the largely independent Ottoman Barbary states of North Africa: [Barbary slave trade - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade) [![](https://preview.redd.it/map-of-the-barbary-slave-trade-other-european-slave-trade-v0-hc670lvvwa3f1.jpeg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=b93748b88bfddcb82a58b484844a13de2161d6bd) ](https://preview.redd.it/map-of-the-barbary-slave-trade-other-european-slave-trade-v0-hc670lvvwa3f1.jpeg?width=1080&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=b93748b88bfddcb82a58b484844a13de2161d6bd) Case 2: The Ottomans built this **tower of skulls** in Serbia from the rebels’ skulls (women and children were sold into slavery). This happened in 1809. At the same time, the adjacent empire, Austrohungarian one, was already building railroads. Steam locomotives were developed in the UK. [Skull Tower - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower) [![](https://img.atlasobscura.com/J0meb4mhxfN2MZK1L2XYPzypI3X5V2BQrT-K910MEZU/rt:fit/h:400/q:81/sm:1/scp:1/ar:1/aHR0cHM6Ly9hdGxh/cy1kZXYuczMuYW1h/em9uYXdzLmNvbS91/cGxvYWRzL3BsYWNl/X2ltYWdlcy8zYzNi/OWZiNC04YmM0LTQz/OTgtODU1Ny1iYmQ0/MWMxYTNkMWFkZjIw/MmY3MDI3NmY4Yjcy/MmRfNTUxOTAxNzky/MF85ZTZiZDllOTFj/X2suanBn.webp) ](https://img.atlasobscura.com/J0meb4mhxfN2MZK1L2XYPzypI3X5V2BQrT-K910MEZU/rt:fit/h:400/q:81/sm:1/scp:1/ar:1/aHR0cHM6Ly9hdGxh/cy1kZXYuczMuYW1h/em9uYXdzLmNvbS91/cGxvYWRzL3BsYWNl/X2ltYWdlcy8zYzNi/OWZiNC04YmM0LTQz/OTgtODU1Ny1iYmQ0/MWMxYTNkMWFkZjIw/MmY3MDI3NmY4Yjcy/MmRfNTUxOTAxNzky/MF85ZTZiZDllOTFj/X2suanBn.webp) So, what do you think? ---
**Author:** ![Hypatia](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/hypatia/32/100_2.png) [@Hypatia](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Hypatia)\ **Post date:** [6 November 2026 16:58 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/2 "2026-11-06T16:58:54Z")
Totes fascinating: this seems to be a recent and unprecedentedly audacious salvo of the aggressive phenomenon known as “Third Worldism”. To the contention that assimilation can result in loss of religion and culture of an immigrant group: um, duh. And: failure or refusal of such groups to assimilate results in loss of the religion and culture of the indigenous people. I heard somewhere that history is written by the winners. The question “Who is the real monster?”will be answered by whichever civilization survives this present tsunami of mass migration. The Third World is on the move now, just like the Germanic tribes in the late hegemony of Rome. Why? Does it matter why? and IS there even a “why”? ---
**Author:** ![Gavin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/439d5e/32.png) [@Gavin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Gavin)\ **Post date:** [6 November 2026 18:06 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/3 "2026-11-06T18:06:23Z")
This reminds me of the Bob Dylan song "_I Pity the Poor Immigrant_’. If assimilation is such an insult, why go to France in the first place? If you don’t want to assimilate, why not stay home? The original Greek meaning of “barbarian” was simply someone who did not speak Greek, and thus sounded in Greek ears to be saying “bar-bar”. There was not necessarily a sense of inferiority in calling them barbarians – simply that they were different. This young woman author seems to take pride in her lack of civilization. Would it not be better for her to be in a place where she fitted in? Although the opportunities for transgressive authors might be less in such a place – especially for a female! We know that the evil deeds Europeans perpetrated on fellow Europeans equaled or far exceeded the evils they perpetrated on “barbarians”. The lady is far behind the times with her mirror held up to Western moral shortcomings. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/caFtFh1_YT0/maxresdefault.jpg "Richie Havens - I Pity The Poor Immigrant") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caFtFh1_YT0) ---
**Author:** ![Hypatia](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/hypatia/32/100_2.png) [@Hypatia](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Hypatia)\ **Post date:** [6 November 2026 20:59 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/4 "2026-11-06T20:59:04Z")
Yes I totally agree with this. F’rinstance,if somebody wants to,live under sharia law, theire are plenty of places in the world where they can, nay, must, do so. I thought “barbarian” has sump’n to do with beards? But that may be a folk etymology. ---
**Author:** ![civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/civilwestman/32/25_2.png) [@civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/civilwestman)\ **Post date:** [6 November 2026 21:56 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/5 "2026-11-06T21:56:36Z")
Barbarian ‘good’ is from the same intellectual tradition as male = female, just with the right surgery. Who needs civilization? We’re all democrats now, with full “equity “. ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 09:24 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/6 "2026-11-07T09:24:12Z")
> [@civilwestman](#): > > Who needs civilization? Short-termist democracy has a tendency of destroying itself. The problem isn’t necessarily in democracy per se, but in short-termism. Without the right foundations, intelligence and civilizational values, the state regresses to the whims of a short-termist mob. ---
**Author:** ![civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/civilwestman/32/25_2.png) [@civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/civilwestman)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 12:39 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/7 "2026-11-07T12:39:35Z")
> [@eggspurt](#): > > The problem isn’t necessarily in democracy per se, but in short-termism. I should have been more clear. I didn’t mean democracy when I said we were all “democrats” now. It is my aversion to capitalizing the term “democrat”, since they have even made capitalization a “thing”. However, it is true - as you say - regression of even a well-structured representative democracy has devolved into a mob in a bit over 200 years. It looks to me to be near its end. Perhaps the natural state of human society is feudalism/tribalism, after all? ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 12:45 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/8 "2026-11-07T12:45:37Z")
I think the ideas and understanding of government, religion and morality have always been evolving. I tease communists and socialists that they’re really conservatives because they’re conserving the ideologies from the 1800s that have repeatedly failed. Those who think they’re conservatives have lost the will to win - and change and evolve the underlying paradigms. ---
**Author:** ![civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/civilwestman/32/25_2.png) [@civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/civilwestman)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 12:55 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/9 "2026-11-07T12:55:53Z")
> [@eggspurt](#): > > conservatives have lost the will to win I think there’s an inherent imbalance between those whose worldview is “live and let live” and those whose all-encompassing, obsessive religion demands that the entire world submit to their whims. That accounts for the temporary alliance between the left and the Islamists. It will inevitably break down because the totalitarian rules of those two ideologies are not compatible. That’s not to say both are not religious in nature. Different zealous religions eventually fight for supremacy. Have you noticed how the left purports to hate “supremacists”? They mean they hate any supremacy other than their own. Psychologists call this (pathological) projection. ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 14:29 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/10 "2026-11-07T14:29:52Z")
My point is that the right needs to innovate and become more expansive. Bashing the left, or islam, or anyone else won’t do zilch - and is just counterproductive. ---
**Author:** ![civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/civilwestman/32/25_2.png) [@civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/civilwestman)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 14:51 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/11 "2026-11-07T14:51:09Z")
> [@eggspurt](#): > > Bashing Neither my nor most of the people I read engage in “bashing”. Rational argument, pointing out where they are wrong, is precisely how progress is made. It is the left which does the “bashing” (and censorship). As to what works, we have a definite problem, best described by Rush Limbaugh (may peace be upon him): “you can’t compete with Santa Claus”. ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 15:01 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/12 "2026-11-07T15:01:23Z")
I’m just trying to move the conversation away from critique towards the creation of something better. It’s as much a note for myself. I don’t yet know what’s the best way forward. But maybe you all have seen something promising. There’s [https://www.palladiummag.com/](https://www.palladiummag.com/) - there’s [https://sofiechan.com/](https://sofiechan.com/) maybe there are other groups worth looking into? ---
**Author:** ![Gavin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/439d5e/32.png) [@Gavin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Gavin)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 16:03 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/13 "2026-11-07T16:03:45Z")
Apparently China – _looking at the strange US election results and the flames in Paris and the near-coup in Poland and the unmandated latest English Prime Minister_ – is concluding that Western “democracy” has failed. It is no match, they say, for socialism with Chinese characteristics. (“Characteristics”, we might notice, that include almost no social safety net. Obviously “socialism” does not translate well into Chinese). The sad thing is that the Chinese are right – Western “democracy” based on political factions and universal suffrage (_Criminals get to vote!_) has failed. Interestingly, de Tocqueville writing in the mid-1800s noted with disappointment the worthlessness of US Congresscritters. But there is a lot of ruin in a nation, and it has taken time for that worthlessness to create the mess we are now living in. The root of our problem is factions – political parties – which are dominated by small groups of unrepresentative activists. Factions which the Founding Fathers detested. For “democracy” to survive, we need to destroy political parties. There are other flavors of (true) democracy, but it is very hard to see how we get from here to there without generations of suffering. ---
**Author:** ![civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/civilwestman/32/25_2.png) [@civilwestman](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/civilwestman)\ **Post date:** [7 November 2026 16:45 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/barbarism-good-or-bad/6508/14 "2026-11-07T16:45:27Z")
> [@eggspurt](#): > > towards the creation of something better. Perhaps that is at the heart of our problem? I deeply believe the principles which guide the best way forward - requires us to look _back_; back at The Constitution - to what it is that _constitutes_ us (what _should_ if we are to remain). Unfortunately, beginning with progressives of the early 20th century, there have been continuous, concerted and lawyer-clever largely successful efforts to extirpate virtually every principle - the entire foundation - on which the edifice of the State rests. Equally lethal has been the murder (it didn’t die of old age) of the “virtuous people” Ben Franklin deemed necessary for self-governance. Somehow, a virtuous self-sufficient people with moral agency and civic virtue was transmogrified into a hierarchical authoritarian nation of victims. Amazingly, victims (in reality, _pawns_ in the hands of power brokers ever-advertising their own virtue) now occupy the pinnacle of moral virtue in the USSA (united socialist states of america), according to the rubrics of our betters. If I seem cynical, it is only because I AM.