# Trump, please explain 2020! **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [4 April 2024 21:11 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536 "2024-04-04T21:11:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/citizen_bitcoin/32/19488_2.png) [@Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Citizen_bitcoin)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 00:43 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/41 "2024-04-14T00:43:49Z")
You are a rebel in a deeply disturbed society ---
**Author:** ![BlackPrince](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/f0a364/32.png) [@BlackPrince](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/BlackPrince)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 00:44 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/42 "2024-04-14T00:44:13Z")
Ha! Okay, I’ll take it! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/citizen_bitcoin/32/19488_2.png) [@Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Citizen_bitcoin)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 00:47 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/43 "2024-04-14T00:47:19Z")
I feel the same way about me and my political friends. I have a friend who used to be left wing and has done 180 because of covid mandates. He lived in California for 20 years. Now he lives in Texas near Austin. He now wants to leave Austin for some place more rural. He also has a greater appreciation for federalism and the founding fathers. He started watching Tucker Carlson and can’t stand Ben Shapiro. His transformation has been remarkable. The main reason was covid insanity He still dislikes Trump but will still support him over Biden because Biden is so terrible in so many ways. ---
**Author:** ![BlackPrince](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/f0a364/32.png) [@BlackPrince](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/BlackPrince)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 00:54 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/44 "2024-04-14T00:54:55Z")
> [@Devereaux](#): > > From the media. From the administration (?remember Fauci and the female scarf-wearing doc - ?Burke). From corporations - my wife worked in PAR and _the hospital!_ required she take the vaccine to work. From state medical boards. From the Democrat Party. From Big Pharma. From local pharmacies. From medical societies - the AMA wholeheartedly endorsed ALL the foolishness, just like they endorse antigen legislation and global warming. From various government departments school boards, local cops who enforced the ban on church gatherings and city mayors who imposed the bans. While everything you said is factually correct, I don’t believe for a second that all of these entities, if left to their own devices, would have done what they did if it wasn’t imposed on them by some “external force”. In other words, the level of coordination and harmonization of message wasn’t spontaneous or organic. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/citizen_bitcoin/32/19488_2.png) [@Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Citizen_bitcoin)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 00:58 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/45 "2024-04-14T00:58:47Z")
California is a lost cause. The organic or spontaneous response was covid tyranny in California. Los Angeles and San Francisco embraced it ---
**Author:** ![BlackPrince](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/b/f0a364/32.png) [@BlackPrince](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/BlackPrince)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 01:00 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/46 "2024-04-14T01:00:58Z")
I think you know where I stand on all of this. I’ve completely divested myself of any sense of patriotism or political affiliation…I no longer define myself in those terms. My only hope and faith is in God and my only allegiance is to my family and the decent people around me. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/citizen_bitcoin/32/19488_2.png) [@Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Citizen_bitcoin)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 01:40 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/47 "2024-04-14T01:40:24Z")
Good strategy I agree with your priorities. I forgot to make clear that COVID tyranny was the spontaneous response in California because the state is crazy I wasn’t trying to dispute your general thesis ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 11:51 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/48 "2024-04-14T11:51:26Z")
In the old days, pathogens were eradicated, not tolerated. Even libertarian thinkers like Hayek understood that well: > [@The turning point comes, it has](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/the-turning-point-comes-it-has/1907/28): > > Now it is not intended to deny here that some amount of central planning of this kind will always be necessary. There are unquestionably fields, like the fight against contagious diseases, where the price mechanism is not applicable, either because some services cannot be priced, or because a clear object desired by an overwhelming majority can only be achieved if a small dissenting minority is coerced. [Socialism and War: Essays, Documents, Reviews](https://books.google.si/books?id=0wA0Ha1FKikC&lpg=PA196&ots=Uf0xisT8tL&dq=%22Now%20it%20is%20not%20intended%20to%20deny%20here%20that%20some%20amount%20of%20central%20planning%20of%20this%20kind%20will%20always%20be%20necessary.%20There%20are%20unquestionably%20fields%2C%20like%20the%20fight%20against%20contagious%20diseases%2C%20where%20the%20price%20mechanism%20is%20not%20applicable%2C%20either%20because%20some%20services%20cannot%20be%20priced%2C%20or%20because%20a%20clear%20object%20desired%20by%20an%20over-%20whelming%20majority%20can%20only%20be%20achieved%20if%20a%20small%20dis-%20enting%20minority%20is%20coerced.%20The%22&pg=PA196#v=onepage&q&f=false) By F. A. Hayek ---
**Author:** ![jabowery](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/jabowery/32/5478_2.png) [@jabowery](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/jabowery)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 14:31 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/49 "2024-04-14T14:31:40Z")
Yeah but guys like Hayek never understood what the function of a Declaration of War is and that’s because they never understood the foundation of civilization was not their wishful thinking about “nonaggression”. That fantasy of theirs was interior decoration of a 600M year old cavern of _individual_ sexual aggression between males. Now we have Trump with his great big beautiful wall and a great big beautiful gate with hoards of _legal_ immigrants coming in to do the jobs Americans won’t do. Never mind that we’ve already lost the cyberwar to India and that it is going to require killing the urban areas – and most of the people in them – to escape this nightmare. Spengler was an optimist. ![DemocracyImmigrationWhiteRuralRage](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/uploads/default/original/3X/1/0/1005b3fc5cc7a12e9afc3287042dbf3f0abe8de1.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/citizen_bitcoin/32/19488_2.png) [@Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Citizen_bitcoin)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 19:43 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/50 "2024-04-14T19:43:02Z")
What if the dissenting crowd is not small or not a minority? ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 20:01 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/51 "2024-04-14T20:01:19Z")
What if the dissenting crowd was a product of hostile state actors? > **[Fifth column](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_column)** > > A fifth column is any group of people who undermine a larger group or nation from within, usually in favor of an enemy group or another nation. According to Harris Mylonas and Scott Radnitz, "fifth columns" are "domestic actors who work to undermine the national interest, in cooperation with external rivals of the state". The activities of a fifth column can be overt or clandestine. Forces gathered in secret can mobilize openly to assist an external attack. This term is also extended to organi And what if [someone](https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CPRT-115SPRT28110/html/CPRT-115SPRT28110.htm) has been sponsoring extremists on both sides of the political spectrum [for a few decades](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yErKTVdETpw) now? The trend of growing distrust and polarization coincides with the rise of Putin in 1999: ![](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/uploads/default/original/3X/8/e/8ec7d3fb34c7047aa160fd77934d2f257e9e2c8a.png) ---
**Author:** ![drlorentz](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/drlorentz/32/902_2.png) [@drlorentz](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/drlorentz)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 22:27 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/52 "2024-04-14T22:27:47Z")
> [@eggspurt](#): > > The trend of growing distrust and polarization coincides with the rise of Putin in 1999: This is priceless. It is the most absurd effort to blame the Russkies since the Russian Collusion hoax. The number of sunspots at solar maximum has also decreased since the rise of Putin. _Coincidence? I don’t think so!_ Not to worry: the next solar max is predicted to stabilize at about the same level as the last one. Crisis averted! This must mean that Putin will be deposed or die. You heard it here first, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/citizen_bitcoin/32/19488_2.png) [@Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Citizen_bitcoin)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 22:49 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/53 "2024-04-14T22:49:10Z")
COVID was tolerable. Death rates were exaggerated. Almost every one survived with or without COVID shot or booster. I got Johnson & Johnson but not by choice in late 2021. ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 23:31 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/54 "2024-04-14T23:31:50Z")
> **[Your logical fallacy is strawman](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman)** > > You misrepresented someone's argument to make it easier to attack. ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [14 April 2024 23:37 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/55 "2024-04-14T23:37:03Z")
The mortality caused by C19 was underreported. This is the extent of damage: [![excess mortality](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/uploads/default/original/3X/e/6/e62c613754ad5792989a2f32b58d74c13db5adb9.png)](https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid) Now, if eradication was the goal (as it should have been if WHO leadership complied with their own constitution), there’d be 3x fewer lockdowns, and the virus would have never spread outside of Wuhan. Unfortunately, the flu mindset of ‘preventing healthcare meltdown’ was implemented with predictable results. ---
**Author:** ![drlorentz](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/drlorentz/32/902_2.png) [@drlorentz](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/drlorentz)\ **Post date:** [15 April 2024 00:07 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/56 "2024-04-15T00:07:03Z")
Let’s see. Did you not claim that Putin was the cause? I quoted your text verbatim. He claim is laughable on its face. Linking to some idiotic ‘fallacy’ web page is not an counterargument. But, please, continue to provide entertainment. I’m sure everyone is enjoying it. My sincere thanks. ---
**Author:** ![drlorentz](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/drlorentz/32/902_2.png) [@drlorentz](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/drlorentz)\ **Post date:** [15 April 2024 00:13 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/57 "2024-04-15T00:13:33Z")
But, hey, one stupid ‘fallacy’ link deserves another. It’s only fair. > **[Your logical fallacy is false cause](https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause)** > > You presumed that a real or perceived relationship between things means that one is the cause of the other. You’re welcome! ---
**Author:** ![Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/citizen_bitcoin/32/19488_2.png) [@Citizen\_bitcoin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Citizen_bitcoin)\ **Post date:** [15 April 2024 01:38 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/58 "2024-04-15T01:38:20Z")
USA COVID fatality median age was around 80 years. You have to display age of fatality along with number of deaths ---
**Author:** ![Gavin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/letter_avatar_proxy/v4/letter/g/439d5e/32.png) [@Gavin](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/Gavin)\ **Post date:** [15 April 2024 02:31 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/59 "2024-04-15T02:31:51Z")
> [@eggspurt](#): > > The mortality caused by C19 was underreported. With deepest respect, Eggspurt, let’s try to get a handle on scale. There are perhaps 9 Billion human beings on Planet Earth, with an average life span of about 70 years. Recognizing that the population average age is skewed lower (outside the under-replacing West), let’s estimate this means a normal annual death toll of around 100 Million people – about 3 people per second. Our base expectation is that in a normal year, 100 Million people will die from all causes. In the approx. 4 years between 2020 & 2024, that amounts to 400 Million people dying … normally. Confirmed Covid deaths are listed at about 7 million – a little more than 1% over the expected numbers of deaths in those years. Even using the Upper Bound estimate of around 35 Million extra deaths, that is still less than 10% of the expected total. It certainly was not the Black Death. Given that there is room for major fudging in the classification of death statistics (_80 year-old man with multiple health issues dies – what killed him?_), the most likely interpretation is that Covid-19 was just another one of those “Influenza-Like Illnesses” which the CDC has been following for years. ---
**Author:** ![eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/user_avatar/scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/eggspurt/32/3686_2.png) [@eggspurt](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/u/eggspurt)\ **Post date:** [15 April 2024 10:55 UTC](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536/60 "2024-04-15T10:55:36Z")
I’ve too been asking for a [QALY](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quality-adjusted_life_year)-based estimate, but some data is better than no data. You can actually calculate the age of death yourself contrasting the excess mortality with the change in life expectancy. Another indicator is life expectancy, which is beginning to recover, maybe: [Life Expectancy Increases, However Suicides Up in 2022](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/nchs_press_releases/2023/20231129.htm) Things would of course be a lot worse without the interverntions countries have taken. I think this also covers some very valid arguments from @Gavin. As for whether Covid is like flu, well, this we know it’s not: > **[The Research — Long Covid Learning](https://www.longcovidlearning.org/the-research)** In part we know it because SARS1 is very similar to SARS2, and China tried to [cover it up the first time](https://www.easap.asia/index.php/component/k2/item/237-v24n1-p37-38): > There have been only a few reports in the local media about the current situation of a small self-help group of survivors in Beijing, but not about the majority of SARS survivors. The domestic media reported in 2009 that there were approximately 300 SARS survivors struggling with long-term complications in Beijing; 80% of these were forced to quit their jobs and 60% suffered from avascular necrosis, pulmonary fibrosis, or depression. In the first few years after the SARS outbreak, reports about the aftereffects of SARS were banned in the media. As a positive development later, both the central and local governments became aware of these problems and began taking steps to address SARS-related morbidity and reduce the financial burden on survivors. [Previous page](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536.md?page=2) [Next page](https://scanalyst.fourmilab.ch/t/trump-please-explain-2020/4536.md?page=4)