You Know You're Living in a Backwater..

I’m late to this party and I haven’t read every word in this thread, but I think @jabowery is onto something. Somewhat related is Heinlein’s idea (Starship Troopers) that to become a citizen (which includes voting rights), one must do national service. That means either joining the military and fighting in wars, which seem to be always on, or working in some very hazardous civilian duty. It seems that almost everyone opts for military duty. Men and women serve in the military but women do not serve in the Mobile Infantry, which is where one is face-to-face with the enemy. However, women serving are subject to mortal risk.

It’s been a while since I read this book so I may have gotten some of the details wrong. The key idea is that one must have “skin in the game” if one is to enjoy the privileges of full citizenship. Most of the book is devoted to political philosophy, rather than to action or character development. The film adaptation is not good.

5 Likes

Again: who has more “skin in the game” than mothers?

I reckon now the thread will veer off (if it hasn’t already; I’m never too sure what @jabowery is saying) into the idea that no, no, okay, you should vote if you’re a mother, but not if you’re a childless woman. We explored this before. But this may be you gents’ best shot:
Childless women are useless, they haven’t fulfilled the biological imperative to get their genes into the next generation.
Neither have many men.
Ah yes but men fight the wars (mos’ly).
Touché!
So, then, old and disabled men won’t be voting either, unless they’re fathers? Or maybe, at least, combat veterans?

Dont shoot the messenger: I’m not a feminist, or not much of one. Men and women are very different from each other, I believe. But I AM grateful that I could be taught to read, and write, and be admitted to the bar. Oh, I hate to think how lonely I would be without access to the great pantheon of English literature and poetry, and the vast, echoing Athenaeum of our legal tradition! And as you gents surely know, it wasn’t THAT long ago that there was a raging debate about women’s access to those privileges, too. I reckon “the vote” is just kinda a mascot for all that. FINIS.

2 Likes

Agreed that one must have some kind of “skin in the game”, but the vast majority of wars are “banker’s wars” (they benefit a very small elite), are based on lies, and have nothing to do with securing a nation or serving the interests of its citizens. If that’s the game, then count me out. I’ll never sign up to become cannon fodder, no matter what kind of shaming language is used. F*ck that!

That, I can get behind, particularly where there’s a clear and direct benefit for the average citizen (e.g. being a fire figher or involved in maintaing critical infrastructure).

Agreed.

2 Likes

Property owners have more skin in the game than mothers who receive public assistance for housing and food stamps and Medicaid

4 Likes

You might find it surprising that if I had my way, a woman who has a miscarriage should be awarded the female equivalent of a Purple Heart. A woman who dies in child birth should be awarded that plus the female equivalent of the Bronze Star.

The sexual distinction should be maintained so as to avoid any nonsense.

But, if your Jungian shade wants to keep on further Africanizing the world, just keep on not understanding what I’ve been saying since 1992.

https://groups.google.com/g/soc.men/c/tp2wxTeAgRY/m/XmimbYjSYCUJ

2 Likes

Skin in the game is a great concept, and I fully agree with it—but it depends on fast feedback. The problem is that with voting the feedback isn’t fast.

At a national level, the consequences of our actions are delayed. Major changes rarely happen within a few years. The last financial crisis didn’t just occur under the “dumber” Bush—it was years in the making. The Afghanistan debacle wasn’t solely Joe Biden’s fault. The declining birth rate didn’t just happen overnight. If the national debt truly matters, it took a long time before it showed any real consequences.

We experience both the benefits and the fallout of collective actions spanning millions of people across different timeframes. It’s rarely obvious what the impact of our votes will be, and even years later, we can’t say with certainty. What was the long-term effect of no-fault divorce?

I happen to be from a generation that was of military age between the Vietnam War and the Gulf War. If I had been subjected to mandatory service, would it have been the same level of “skin in the game” as the boomers who fought in Vietnam or those born after me who served in later conflicts?

Do military veterans make better voting decisions than the rest of us? Do firefighters? I highly doubt it. The consequences they face are tied to their career choices, not their voting decisions. And if people were forced into those jobs, it wouldn’t be a consequence of their voting, either.

A team succeeds when its members genuinely want it to succeed and are willing to make sacrifices for one another and the greater good. Military service is one form of sacrifice. Raising children, inventing new things, or simply excelling at an honest job—whether as a janitor or an engineer—are others. Putting the nation’s well-being above individual interests is a real sacrifice.

The balance between personal success and collective success is difficult to quantify, but right now, it’s completely out of whack.

The larger the group, the harder it is to foster unity. The more diverse the people, the harder it is to maintain cohesion. Multiculturalism, by definition, works against unity.

People need an answer to the question: Why should I care?

  • Get vagrants, drug addicts, and the mentally ill off the streets in LA—why should I care?
  • Stop gang violence in Chicago—why is that my problem?
  • Ensure trans people feel comfortable in restrooms or women feel comfortable in the restroom-- why do I care?

Leadership has to provide answers that show why these things benefit both the nation and the individual. The larger the group, the harder it is for people to relate to one another or agree on what is good for the group.

In a homogeneous society, most people agree on what is good and bad. In smaller groups, they can see the results of their actions firsthand. When there’s disagreement, they can work it out amongst themselves.

If I’m unwilling to sacrifice for what someone else values, and they won’t sacrifice for what I value, then why are we pretending to be on the same team?

This is where we are now—competing factions fighting to impose their values on others through sheer power.

4 Likes

Career choices dictate voting decisions.
Property ownership dictates voting decisions.
Property owners are more responsible than renters who have less skin in the game.

4 Likes

While that is often true, there are notable exceptions. We may be witnessing one in progress. The next year or two may be quite transformative: the result of one election. Attributed to Lenin: “There are decades where nothing happens; and there are weeks where decades happen.” These last few weeks may prove to be more consequential that the last few years. Nicolae Ceaușescu got booed at a speech on Dec. 21 and was dead by Christmas Day. While not quite an election, it would be fair to call it a de facto plebiscite by acclamation.

5 Likes

Why? It appears to me that many young men are choosing death by drug overdose. Isn’t ending your life skin in the game. They are suffering the consequences of our historical collective political decisions.

Farmers receive an unbelievable amount of aid. They receive this aid because they have outsized political power due to the Senate. When they vote, they vote for what is best for farmers (as a generalization of the group). As a matter of fact they are so good at protecting the farmer that if a person owns farm property but does not make a living farming, they cannot receive the same aid the farmers get. That is the most obvious example of why property owners nor any other sub group should get to decide. They can and have taken advantage of everyone else.

When I was young I didn’t own property. I am not more responsible since I purchased property. I had to be responsible to get an education, save money and buy property. Simply owning property is easy street.

3 Likes

We can hope.

2 Likes

Mammon vs Human.

It always ends up with destruction of civilization to destroy Mammon.

We stand at the precipice of Mammon destroying Human by the mechanization of Mammon as war machine by the worshipers of Mammon. So yeah, limit the vote to property owners because Mammon IS “Skin In The Game”… after all, what do we need humans for? … sure… THAT’S THE TICKET!

3 Likes

One benefit of limiting the franchise to property owners is that it’s harder to cheat or inflate voter registrations. Much easier to count the number of households or buildings. US Census has stated that renters (or anyone with a roommate) are harder to count and track down.

California is an automatic voter registration state: drivers license, food stamps, Medi-Cal, Covered California (Obama care exchange/subsidies), etc

2 Likes

image

image

You want “skin in the game”, women?

I’ll give you Skin In The Game.
image

1 Like

Not gonna shoot you….i wouldnt bring a gun to a knife fight.

2 Likes

There are tons Disney movies out there nowadays, in which the girl-boss would win a knife fight against a gang of men coming at her. But, in the event the judiciary had an appeal of last resort like #6, women with the right to vote (ie: they’ve not accepted the shield of any sovereign) would almost certainly do the same as I would:

Use the 10" blade and 50’ of strong cordage to construct things from the natural resources with which to hunt the challenger. A sovereign woman would almost certainly have developed her huntress abilities to include the ability to empathize with her prey and thereby predict his moves so as to move in for the kill.

It would be most gratifying to see lawyers – especially women lawyers who believe women have “skin in the game” – abjure any man’s shield even as she shields others that inspire in her the offering of her shield, and who retain her “services” in that capacity.

All she needs is cunning, strategic thinking, tactical training and a killer instinct for those who she judges as a sovereign individual, must be removed from the evolutionary stream.

1 Like

I think, famously, fatally wounded men always call for their mothers in their death agony, don’t they? I’m sure I’ve encountered WWI poetry to that effect. I imagine female dying soldiers do, too. There you are, in extreme discomfort, physically helpless, shitting yourself—I mean, who but your mother can be relied on to deal with all that?
Dear @jabowery ( may I call you Ja?) I’m not sure what’s your point in your last two posts here, but I think what our “dispute” if we’re having one, is certainly not about whether men are better soldiers, and are stronger, braver, than women. I do not doubt that and have never gainsaid it, here nor elsewhere. I reckon the issue is whether, that being true, women should also be denied the right to vote., whether that must necessarily follow from men’s undisputed (by me) superior strength and aggression and courage.
Y’know…it occurred to me that in the U.S. and U.K., women got the vote in the 1920s, after WW I. During that conflict they not only did the men’s jobs at home, many went to the front lines, and not only as nurses but as drivers of ambulances and supply trucks. They were desperately needed then, and they stepped up. I reckon it was embarrassing to maintain that they should be denied the vote even though they risked their lives for their country, just a thot……

2 Likes

My opinion is that powerful men want women to compete on an “equal” footing with the less powerful men because of the 6 million year old gangsterism of African primates in which an “alpha” can dominate the mating opportunities long after he would have been defeated were it not for “coalition building”.

That’s why I “accuse” you of Africanization which, in the context of Western Civilization, means the collapse thereof. I’ve repeatedly posted a link to my 1992 essay “Race, Gender and the Frontier” so I’m not going to do it again. Moreover, just understand that my efforts to denounce the 19th Amendment isn’t because I’m trying to defend civil society. It’s because I’m trying to defend people who, like yourself, don’t understand how you are threatening that upon which you depend. As for myself, yes I’ll probably go down with the lot of ya’ll but quite honestly, I’m just sticking around in this life doing this as a service to humanity. I’d much prefer to go out with a bang – and no that’s not a “cry for help” because its not a “bang” aimed at myself. I’ve been in this mode ever since I started working on the Launch Services Act of 1990, despite not really believing in “the system”.

1 Like

I cannot speak for Mr. Bowery – but please don’t get hung up on the issue of “women” not being allowed to vote. There is a very substantial chunk of the population who should not be allowed to vote, including many men as well as many women.

Stepping out of the world of theory and back into the real world, voting (as currently practiced) is largely irrelevant anyway, because “representative democracy” is a proven failure. Just look around! Mankind (humankind, if anyone so prefers) has the ability to design a better system – but first we have to endure the total breakdown of the current system as the only way to break the iron rice bowls.

1 Like

This post is about the 19th Amendment. Thats what we’re talking about.
Maybe only people above a certain IQ score should be able to vote?

2 Likes